EP. 17: The Door Is Open: How the Retailer and Law Enforcement Relationship Actually Changed

This week on the CitySafe Podcast, Don Carr sits down with co-host Jim Cords, retired FBI and DHS Investigator, for an unflinching conversation about how the retailer and law enforcement relationship has changed in the last five years.

From the eighteen-month case that got away, to the fourteen-incident pattern file that closed in under a year, Jim walks through what actually broke the old loop, what the 2024 RILA-IACP partnership is really about, and what every AP leader should carry into RAP 2026 in Phoenix this week.

No spin. No product. Just the institutional read from both sides of the seam.

For twenty years, retailers asked when law enforcement was going to show up.

In 2026, law enforcement is asking when retailers are going to bring something worth showing up for.

This week on The CitySafe Podcast, Jim Cords (retired FBI, retired DHS) and I get into what actually changed, where friction still lives, and what AP leaders should carry into Phoenix this week.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:01

You're listening to the LP Solutions Podcast, taking deep dives into all things organized retail crime, security, and law enforcement. Join us every Friday for a new episode as we explore informative topics and have insightful guest interviews.

SPEAKER_02 0:19

Thanks for joining us on the LP Solutions Podcast. This is episode 17. The doors open. How the retailer and law enforcement relationship actually changed. I'm your co-host, Don, former security guard company owner operator.

SPEAKER_01 0:36

And I'm your co-host, Jim, uh former FBI and retired DHS.

SPEAKER_02 0:41

So, Jim, we're days out from the Rela wrap in Phoenix, 125 exhibitors, every asset protection leader in the country about to land in one convention center. And I'll tell you what, the conversation I want to have today is one that's going to run underneath every session up there. But you will not see it on a single slide.

SPEAKER_01 1:05

Okay. So what are you thinking, Don?

SPEAKER_02 1:08

Well, the retailer and law enforcement relationship, it's changed a lot over the last five years. Then it has, I mean, probably over the more over the last five years than it has in the previous 20. And nobody has really taken the time it deserves in laying out what that shift actually was. So that's what we're going to do today. Sounds good. Let's do it. And you're the right guy for this, Jim. Former bureau, retired DHS. You've seen this scene from the federal side for what, almost three decades.

SPEAKER_01 1:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:46

And I've worked it from the retail security and hospitality security side. So this should be a good one. So take me back, Jim. 15 years ago, a retailer in let's say Columbus, Ohio, they were hit. Professional crew cleaned them out. They call FBI. What happens next?

SPEAKER_01 2:10

Well, honestly, most of the time, nothing. Come on. No, I'm serious. It's it's not because nobody cared, but it's all about thresholds, right? So the feds have dollar amount thresholds for prosecution. You know, you have to have that interstate or transnational jurisdiction, uh, the resources, of course. So a single event in Columbus, even if it's a bad one, probably won't get a federal response because it doesn't have any of those pieces of the puzzle. Um, it would so we would need to be referred back to the locals who would probably say it was a misdemeanor, and then the loop is closed.

SPEAKER_02 2:45

So, Jim, I have to push on you here. Um, I've sat with AP directors who literally laughed when I suggested calling the feds. I mean, like laughed out loud, right? Um, this is not a small thing to move off of. We're asking people to believe the system that passed them around for 20 years is now going to catch them when they call.

SPEAKER_01 3:10

Well, yeah, I I hear you. And I think the laughter is earned. Uh, I'm not gonna sit here and pretend it's not. That would, but that reputation was built on real experiences, right? Repeated thousands of times across the country for a generation of AP leaders.

SPEAKER_02 3:26

So how do you answer that person, the one who laughs?

SPEAKER_01 3:29

Well, let's talk about a hypothetical, right? So let's say there's a case where a retailer came in with what they thought was a federal matter. You know, they had documentation, they had video, they had losses across four different stores, kind of real crew work, right? So the feds would look at it, and the reality is probably can't touch it because the losses per store don't meet that threshold for prosecution. You know, there's no interstate or transnational peace. Uh, the video chain might not hold up in trial. So again, it would be kicked back to the locals, uh, whom would probably kick it back to the retailer. Then that crew would keep hitting stores for, I don't know, let's say another 18 months before anybody would could build a solid case. 18 months. Yeah, it could be that long.

SPEAKER_02 4:16

Wow. So while that crew is hitting more stores, what happens next?

SPEAKER_01 4:22

Well, while everybody involved is watching it happen and nobody has a vehicle to stop it, right? So that's the loop. That's where the laughter is all about. Uh, and I'm not going to defend it because it happens.

SPEAKER_02 4:35

Well, Jim, that's the old chicken and the egg, huh?

SPEAKER_01 4:38

Yeah, total chicken and the egg for years.

SPEAKER_02 4:40

So then that begs the question: what broke the loop? Because when I look at the rap agenda this year, I see US attorneys on the speaker list, DHS on the keynote, Rela and IACP formally partnered in 2024. That's not the industry I walked into 10 years ago, Jim.

SPEAKER_01 5:02

Yeah, I think a few things all changed at once. With the biggest one, honestly, being the ORC crews got ambitious enough that the pattern got visible. So you start seeing the same fencing operations, moving product from stores in multiple states. You see the online marketplace listings. You maybe see a flash mob footage from California hit the news, and the same MO shows up in, let's say, Texas three weeks later.

SPEAKER_02 5:30

So really the internet made it much more legible.

SPEAKER_01 5:33

Yeah, the internet made it legible, and now you could have a federal case, right? Interstate, transnational commerce, wire fraud, kind of the whole toolkit could open up. Um, but you only get there if retailers are reporting, and even better if the reports talk to each other.

SPEAKER_02 5:50

Mm-hmm. So give me the flip side of the 18-month story, because I know you have one.

SPEAKER_01 5:56

Right. Okay, so let's talk about another scenario. Uh, you have the same type of crew, the retailer comes in, but this time they have a file with a with a pattern, right? So 14 incidents across three states documented the same way every time, video preserved properly, witnesses tracked, and the losses aggregated. So total package, that one will get federal attention.

SPEAKER_02 6:21

Okay, so same crew type, completely different outcome.

SPEAKER_01 6:25

Right, completely different outcome. And here's the thing I want people to hear. The difference isn't that the feds got better, the difference was that the retailer provided something the feds could actually work with.

SPEAKER_02 6:39

That's a huge statement, Jim.

SPEAKER_01 6:41

Yeah, it is, you know, and and it's one the industry may not want to hear because it means the old loop was not entirely the feds' fault.

SPEAKER_02 6:50

So, where does Rela and IACP fit into that?

SPEAKER_01 6:55

I think right at the center. So Rela and IACP sitting down in 2024 and saying, hey, we're going to formalize information sharing, develop common training, get the chiefs on the same page as the AP directors. I think that was big. So this is the institutional version of what that second retailer figured out on their own in that second scenario, right? So the IACP matters because in this country, policing is local. If the police chief in your town thinks retail crime is a priority, the patrol officer responds to your call differently. If just if the chief thinks it's noise, uh then you're waiting four to five minutes for a report you may not hear back on.

SPEAKER_02 7:40

Understood. So the Rela IACP is actually about unlocking that street level response.

SPEAKER_01 7:48

Yeah, in large part. Um, you can't run this from Washington, right? You gotta run it through the local police chiefs.

SPEAKER_02 7:56

Well said, Jim. All right. So the partnership narrative is gonna be strong in Phoenix this week. Let's be honest with people, though. You and I both know it's not all kumbaya. Where's the friction still?

SPEAKER_01 8:10

Well, I think three places, right? So the first one is information asymmetry. Retailers always want to know what law enforcement is doing with the reports. You know, is the crew in custody? Is there a case? But law enforcement can't always share that information because it's an active investigation, you have grand jury rules, you have all that stuff. So it kind of creates a trust gap.

SPEAKER_02 8:30

Right. And I mean, that's not comfortable for retailers. And I've had some of them tell me they hate that piece of it.

SPEAKER_01 8:37

Yeah, uh, exactly. And there's really no easy fix for it because it's a structural legal constraint, not a willingness problem. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 8:46

And the second one?

SPEAKER_01 8:48

Uh documentation gap. So retailers write incident reports that may not survive federal prosecution. Witnesses may not have been interviewed well, evidence may not be preserved properly, maybe that video got overwritten because it's on a 30-day cycle. So when prosecutors could handle all that, they can't really file a case.

SPEAKER_02 9:08

Okay, that makes sense. And the retailer thinks they did their part because they reported it.

SPEAKER_01 9:12

Yeah, right. And and they did do their part, right? But the report doesn't hold up in court, the whole thing falls apart. So now law enforcement looks like they didn't do anything and we're back in that chicken and egg situation.

SPEAKER_02 9:25

Understood. And it's really the 18-month story all over again.

SPEAKER_01 9:30

Yeah, it's exactly that 18-month story. Except the feds aren't the reason it fell apart this time, it was the report.

SPEAKER_02 9:37

Mm-hmm. And let's go to the third friction point.

SPEAKER_01 9:42

Yeah, that would be prioritization mismatch. So this is an honest one, right? Say a retailer calls and says, We have a$2,000 loss. We need you here. The officer on the other end has a domestic in progress, a mental health call, or a traffic accident, uh, all on the same shift. The retailer may not be their top priority.

SPEAKER_02 10:04

Jim, I have to stop you here because I hear a lot of this from the federal purchase and it makes sense. But hear me from the retail floor. When you are the store manager and your cashier just got threatened with a box cutter, you're not in a headspace to appreciate that there's a mental health call two blocks over. You want somebody to come. And when they don't come, every piece of cooperation rhetoric in the world feels hollow.

SPEAKER_01 10:35

I mean, hollow. Yeah, and that's fair. You know, I won't pretend the officer showing up an hour later fixes that experience for the cashier because it doesn't. You know, she's going to remember that shift for the rest of her life. And the fact that a chief summer signed a partnership agreement won't won't enter into that.

SPEAKER_02 10:54

Okay, so what do we tell her?

SPEAKER_01 10:56

Well, we tell her the truth. Um, which is that if we keep optimizing for her moment in isolation, we'll never get to the thing that prevents the next box cutter incident. The patterns are what prevent the next one, and the response is what handles the last one. And they both matter, but only one of them compounds. Yeah, Jim, but that's tough. I mean, that's a hard thing to say to a cashier. I agree. It's a totally hard thing to say to the cashier. Um, but it's the truth. And but the industry is moving on it, so that's why aggregation matters. So when the AP director can walk into the chief's office with a file that shows a pattern instead of a stack of individual reports, then that conversation's different. The chief um can't deploy for$2,000, but the chief can deploy for a crew that has hit 14 stores in 90 days.

SPEAKER_02 11:52

Well said. Um, so the retailer's job has moved from reporting incidents to building patterns.

SPEAKER_01 12:01

Yes, and that's the shift. And that is what the collaboration is actually about at the end of the day. It's not just holding hands at conferences, it's changing what the retailer hands that police chief.

SPEAKER_02 12:14

Okay. And Jen, the last one, say a VP of asset protection walking into the Phoenix Convention Center Monday morning. What's the mindset they should carry in?

SPEAKER_01 12:26

I'd say stop treating law enforcement as reactive. The institutional posture has generally changed. So five years ago, you walked into a conference like this one and you saw retailers and solution providers in a room by themselves. This year, you're going to see U.S. attorneys on panels, DHS in the general session, chiefs showing up to the receptions. So the door is open.

SPEAKER_02 12:50

But it is a door. It's not a red carpet, right?

SPEAKER_01 12:53

Yep, it's a door. Uh you just have to walk through it, but you gotta but you gotta walk through it correctly. Right? So go to the gift card fraud alliance workshop, sit in on the prosecution focused sessions, find the law enforcement attendees during the expo hours and introduce yourself. Tell them what you're seeing at the store level and ask what they're seeing from their side. So that conversation is possible now in a way it wasn't probably 10 years ago. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 13:23

And what should they not do?

SPEAKER_01 13:25

Well, don't walk in thinking this is about tools alone. The tools are table stakes. What's not table stakes are the relationships and the reporting discipline. That's where the leverage is in 2026.

SPEAKER_02 13:39

Thanks, Jim. And before we wrap up, I want to land one thing because I think this is the line that's going to stick with people this week.

SPEAKER_01 13:47

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 13:48

For 20 years, retailers asked when law enforcement was going to show up.

SPEAKER_01 13:54

And in 2026, law enforcement is asking when retailers are going to bring something worth showing up for.

SPEAKER_02 14:02

And that is the entire episode in two sentences.

SPEAKER_01 14:07

That is a whole episode in two sentences. You're correct.

SPEAKER_02 14:10

So we're going to be on the floor at wrap Monday and Tuesday with the LP Solutions podcast. If you see us, stop us. The stories we're most interested in are the ones that don't make the main stage. The grinding, unglamorous, institutional work that is actually changing this industry. We look forward to engaging and meaningful conversation with you. The door's open, whether you walk through it with a clipboard or with a case file that can actually close. That's on you. But that's the pod for this week. Thanks for listening. And remember, we're in this together. And together, we make better outcomes possible.

SPEAKER_00 14:53

Thank you for listening to the LP Solutions Podcast. You can download the LP Solutions podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, or anywhere you get your podcasts.